The so-called “wealth” you see in the American middle-class is mostly just debt. We have the shiniest toys and the biggest houses here, but it’s a giant gilded-cage. Most of us die in debt.
You save up and get a second hand car you can afford. Why buy a new one, even a car with 30K miles or 50K KMs is a lot cheaper, while its still new enough to drive for a while without major repairs.
I mean you could buy a lightly used Dacia maybe? Or a Fiat 500 maybe.
But if you want a decently comfy car, nothing luxury, but also not a basic model, 20-30k is minimum for lightly used. German cars depreciate quickly so they’re your best bet in that price range. Toyotas and Volvos will actually be more expensive for same year, mileage, size.
Cars are expensive and necessary in areas without good public transit (read: basically everywhere except a couple of areas in specific cities). Most of us don’t have a year’s salary just sitting in the bank, especially when you’re young.
If you need a car to get to work, you’ll pay what you have to because the alternative is no job which means no home, no healthcare, and no food.
I have a three year loan at 1.9%. Why would I cough up an additional $20k now, when I could hang on to my cash and, at the very least, leave it in an account that earns twice that (and then some) in interest?
it’s extremely rare to find such a cheap used car. my partner spent $8k on one that lasted a year. also, you might be surprised to learn that driving isn’t optional in most of the US - it’s literally impossible to live without a car. I live in a suburb. it’s several miles of dangerous roads to get to a grocery store. there is no nearby public transit. even large cities like LA were completely designed around cars. zoning and urban planning here completely screwed us.
yes, it sucks, yes I’m aware, yes I’d love to live in a walkable European city with commuter rail and cafes on the street corner, no I don’t have a choice.
You can get solid suzukis for 1.5k that last forever.
If you can find porn for your weird fetishes you should be able to find a single goddamn guide on how to buy a car used.
Every single bit of info on how to buy, maintain and fix vehicles is online. For free. For everyone.
If you can’t live without a car at least spend 20 minutes googling it before buying a money pit.
You take that 10k you were going to drop on a crap used car, use that as down payment on a new car. Get a longer loan with lower interest and keep monthly payment lower. The larger the down payment, the lower the monthly will be, and now you have 10 years to set aside money for the next new car or “out of warranty” repairs.
There are still new cars that have a sticker less than 30k, after warranties and any desired upgrades, probably closer to 35k-40k for anything not a truck, EV, or sport car.
There’s also people who lease, they pay lots of money to rent a car for around 3 year, after that they trade in for a new car and the old car gets sold as used.
I spent 55k and bought my midlife crisis sports car. Most expensive thing I have ever spent money on and I just finished paying it off after 6 years 718$ payments. Now to buy a home. One day.
Optioned out Mustang GT. 5.0 with the performance package and all the other additional features. It’s amazing how fast and nimble the car can be. The only thing I didn’t get on it was the magnetic suspension. I couldn’t find one with that added on when I purchased.
Buy the car you can afford. If you can’t buy it outright or make a significant down payment (20-30%), don’t take out a loan, look for a cheaper option. Those interest rates are insane, I’m amazed how anyone would accept them.
Sure. But if they can’t afford the loans they can’t afford the car, either. No one really needs a $40k new car, anyone could get by with a $2000 used beater.
Not really. This is another thing that falls neatly into Boots Theory.
The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. … A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. … But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes ‘Boots’ theory of socio-economic unfairness.
A new car, well taken care of, will support a driver for a decade or more. A used car, especially a cheap used car, will have problems you don’t know about and you can safely assume the previous owner did not properly care for it if not outright abused it, that will be true more often than it isn’t.
Unless that $2000 used beater has major issues (and most do at that price these days) and you don’t have the cash to fix them. Then you have a $2000 pile of crap and you still need a car. No, not everyone needs an expensive car, but sometimes there’s a good reason to buy something that requires payments.
You have the option of not buying one if you cant afford it.
And there are some used cars around the 2-5k€ pricepoint if you really need one i guess.
Edit: my main point was that it always shocks me to have such a car dependence in the US that you’d even have to go into debt. I am not saying Americans should just not buy cars…
You have the option of not buying one if you cant afford it.
Not really, depending on where you are.
When I was barely above broke out of college, I had to buy a shit box just to be able to go to work, because the only job I could find in my field was >20 mi from where I lived and had no public transit options that wouldn’t add an hour of walking on top of how long the bus ride took. And that’s assuming clear weather, which we get for maaaaaybe half the year. I don’t know about you, but I’m not about walking for an hour in the blistering cold with spotty sidewalks in busy areas
So, while I could take the option of not buying a car, it would turn a <30 min commute into 2-3 hours one way on a good day. Buying a car was the only way not to lose >25 hours a week on work transportation alone.
I am explicitly talking about this in the context of me being non-american.
And where I live the vast majority of people who can not afford a car (like young people) are not dependent on one. Even if you live in bumfuck nowhere you can get around by moped.
If you work full time you would usually be able to afford a (cheap) car. And if your still in uni the towns are generally big enough for you to not be car-dependant.
You simply don’t exist as an American without a car and a phone and internet and an address with your name on it. Anything below that is considered fringe, poverty or societal reject. Good luck getting a job without a smartphone and your own car, don’t expect public transportation to be of any help, it doesn’t generally exist outside the larger cities and what there is of it, often sucks and takes hours out of your day. Our “public” internet is mostly coffee shops who make you buy something to sit there using their slow-ass wifi. If you fall on hard times, you have to apply for aid, which comes with stacks of provisions, like having an address and a phone, and this kind of aid is only available temporarily and if you accidentally make too much money they will cut you off.
If you’re savvy you can learn to use things like libraries and carpools and food banks and other resources for the needy. But it’s really, really hard to get out of poverty once you fall down. Most institutions and companies that provide services of any kind charge you more and more the less money you have. You need to have over a certain amount in your bank or you pay fees. You need to pay your bills on time or they charge you twice as much, you need to keep a credit history maintained even if you’re broke, because most employers include credit checks in their hiring process.
Most of the “middle class” you see here are suburban families working multiple jobs 6 days a week or more and are on average hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in debt. Two people working often requires two cars, now your monthly transportation costs outpace your living expenses. Have kids or want to have kids? Good fucking luck figuring out childcare or daycare and paying for that too, not counting the vast sums of money the delivery and hospital stay alone cost, even if you have insurance. It’s okay, smartphones and tablets will raise your kids. Keep the machine moving.
Country is car centric. You can not live here without a car. It’s next to impossible. Especially for the handicapped. They can’t get anywhere easily without personal transportation. We suck at mass transit.
Not all of us. I’m sitting on 60k+ in my checking. Plus I paid off every debt I had but my school loans. Those will never be paid off ahead of time. Fuck the GOP for not helping students. But hopefully I have 20% set aside for a home in the next year or two.
You can do school loans if you start paying bigger. Not sure what your debt is or how large your financial cushion needs to be, but if extra cash is sitting in checking not earning interest, its loosing value while your student loan interest keeps ticking up.
For me after setting aside money for savings, I kept what I needed + plus a small amount for whatever and the rest got dumped into loans, had that shit payed off in a few years. Think my total interest payed was around 3k, I know some people basically end up doubling their debt over the 10 years with some crazy interest rates.
(Went to state school, so loans were about 50k for everything, I know some private schools are triple that)
(Also open a saving account or something, your checking account shouldn’t have access to all your funds in the event of debit card theft, especially if you use that online)
“American” here. We are obsessed with financing depreciable assets.
We are also obsessed with appearances and status.
I’m sure you can see from this thread some of us cannot comprehend driving a $5000 car. They will whine and come up with tons of excuses for why that just cannot happen.
I bought my 2008 Toyota Sienna for $4500. I talked him down from $4900.
It had:
230k miles (269k now)
an engine replacement (2010 engine with 110k miles, replaced at 201k on chassis)
severely worn out sliding door rear hinges, bad enough to be grinding the body under the 3rd row windows down to bare metal
broken power steering rack (found that a few weeks later)
balding tires
rattle-can patch job (black paint on factory black paint, not a deal-breaker for me)
blown out rear shocks
more that I’ve forgotten (noted down in my records)
I bought that van because 1) it was a really good price, 2) engine and transmission are in really good shape, 3) rust-free, and 4) I knew what most of its issues were before I bought it and was able to fix it all in my garage.
Also, I have 5 kids, so the minivan was a necessity. $5000 is the bare minimum for a family car these days.
As a non-American it seems wild to me that you would take out a loan for a car.
The so-called “wealth” you see in the American middle-class is mostly just debt. We have the shiniest toys and the biggest houses here, but it’s a giant gilded-cage. Most of us die in debt.
The process of dying involves lots of debt too because of our corrupt funeral and burial industry
We got rid or public transit because of racism so we are totally dependent on driving to go anywhere
how are you buying cars? Because I’m in Europe and they’re expensive here too.
You save up and get a second hand car you can afford. Why buy a new one, even a car with 30K miles or 50K KMs is a lot cheaper, while its still new enough to drive for a while without major repairs.
50k km is still “need a loan” territory for most people. The absolute newest car I’ve owned was 144k km, 3 years old, and still cost near 30k.
Plus when it’s like 2% + 6 months euribor for a lease you get to keep at the end, it starts looking hella more attractive.
Now the APR in the OP, that’s predatory af.
Thanks for clarifying this. I know the EU does a lot of things better but I was confused about how you’re paying €5k for a good vehicle lol
I mean you could buy a lightly used Dacia maybe? Or a Fiat 500 maybe.
But if you want a decently comfy car, nothing luxury, but also not a basic model, 20-30k is minimum for lightly used. German cars depreciate quickly so they’re your best bet in that price range. Toyotas and Volvos will actually be more expensive for same year, mileage, size.
Cars are expensive and necessary in areas without good public transit (read: basically everywhere except a couple of areas in specific cities). Most of us don’t have a year’s salary just sitting in the bank, especially when you’re young.
If you need a car to get to work, you’ll pay what you have to because the alternative is no job which means no home, no healthcare, and no food.
I have a three year loan at 1.9%. Why would I cough up an additional $20k now, when I could hang on to my cash and, at the very least, leave it in an account that earns twice that (and then some) in interest?
Where are you that cars are affordable to a point where this is an usual thing?
Yeah, u buy a used one for like 2,000 - 3,000€. Or you lease. But taking on a loan with 16.9% interest would not cross my mind.
If i cant afford a car, then i aint buyin one.
(This post was presented to you by “living in a livable city” Gang)
it’s extremely rare to find such a cheap used car. my partner spent $8k on one that lasted a year. also, you might be surprised to learn that driving isn’t optional in most of the US - it’s literally impossible to live without a car. I live in a suburb. it’s several miles of dangerous roads to get to a grocery store. there is no nearby public transit. even large cities like LA were completely designed around cars. zoning and urban planning here completely screwed us.
yes, it sucks, yes I’m aware, yes I’d love to live in a walkable European city with commuter rail and cafes on the street corner, no I don’t have a choice.
I know about american circumstances, thats why i added that part in parentheses.
In the european countryside, car dependency is definitely on the same level as in America.
On the topic of prices: the first car my brother and i shared was a 2008 ford fusion. We bought in 2019 for 1.5k.
😭
American, I bought a 2005 Honda Civic in 2020 for $7,500
America: third world country, first world prices.
Nobody with financial sense is taking out a 16.9% loan on a car. 5% is pretty typical right now for people with a decent credit history.
Whether or not that’s reasonable, is certainly up for discussion.
You can get solid suzukis for 1.5k that last forever. If you can find porn for your weird fetishes you should be able to find a single goddamn guide on how to buy a car used. Every single bit of info on how to buy, maintain and fix vehicles is online. For free. For everyone. If you can’t live without a car at least spend 20 minutes googling it before buying a money pit.
But for there to be used cars, there needs to be new cars… How do the people that buy new cars pay for them?
True. The entire car market from new to beater is gonna get fucked up by tariffs pretty soon
You take that 10k you were going to drop on a crap used car, use that as down payment on a new car. Get a longer loan with lower interest and keep monthly payment lower. The larger the down payment, the lower the monthly will be, and now you have 10 years to set aside money for the next new car or “out of warranty” repairs.
There are still new cars that have a sticker less than 30k, after warranties and any desired upgrades, probably closer to 35k-40k for anything not a truck, EV, or sport car.
There’s also people who lease, they pay lots of money to rent a car for around 3 year, after that they trade in for a new car and the old car gets sold as used.
Those are older/richer people that saved enough money to buy new.
Either company cars, leased cars or someone has the spare 30k for a car.
And of course people take out loans for cars too, but thats less common. And not really necessary in the cities.
I spent 55k and bought my midlife crisis sports car. Most expensive thing I have ever spent money on and I just finished paying it off after 6 years 718$ payments. Now to buy a home. One day.
What’d you buy?
Optioned out Mustang GT. 5.0 with the performance package and all the other additional features. It’s amazing how fast and nimble the car can be. The only thing I didn’t get on it was the magnetic suspension. I couldn’t find one with that added on when I purchased.
Buy the car you can afford. If you can’t buy it outright or make a significant down payment (20-30%), don’t take out a loan, look for a cheaper option. Those interest rates are insane, I’m amazed how anyone would accept them.
I ageree, but that’s his predatory loans work, there’s enough people out there who simply can’t afford not to have a car.
Sure. But if they can’t afford the loans they can’t afford the car, either. No one really needs a $40k new car, anyone could get by with a $2000 used beater.
Not really. This is another thing that falls neatly into Boots Theory.
A new car, well taken care of, will support a driver for a decade or more. A used car, especially a cheap used car, will have problems you don’t know about and you can safely assume the previous owner did not properly care for it if not outright abused it, that will be true more often than it isn’t.
Unless that $2000 used beater has major issues (and most do at that price these days) and you don’t have the cash to fix them. Then you have a $2000 pile of crap and you still need a car. No, not everyone needs an expensive car, but sometimes there’s a good reason to buy something that requires payments.
You have the option of not buying one if you cant afford it.
And there are some used cars around the 2-5k€ pricepoint if you really need one i guess.
Edit: my main point was that it always shocks me to have such a car dependence in the US that you’d even have to go into debt. I am not saying Americans should just not buy cars…
Not really, depending on where you are.
When I was barely above broke out of college, I had to buy a shit box just to be able to go to work, because the only job I could find in my field was >20 mi from where I lived and had no public transit options that wouldn’t add an hour of walking on top of how long the bus ride took. And that’s assuming clear weather, which we get for maaaaaybe half the year. I don’t know about you, but I’m not about walking for an hour in the blistering cold with spotty sidewalks in busy areas
So, while I could take the option of not buying a car, it would turn a <30 min commute into 2-3 hours one way on a good day. Buying a car was the only way not to lose >25 hours a week on work transportation alone.
I am explicitly talking about this in the context of me being non-american. And where I live the vast majority of people who can not afford a car (like young people) are not dependent on one. Even if you live in bumfuck nowhere you can get around by moped.
If you work full time you would usually be able to afford a (cheap) car. And if your still in uni the towns are generally big enough for you to not be car-dependant.
Every service worker is someone who needs a car but can’t afford one, it’s normal for working adults
No, you don’t. Go look at America on Google maps. Then take a good hard look at the transit schedules.
2-5k is not something people have laying around now days.
If they do, they’re not the kind to buy them.
But I’m speaking from UK market, might be worse down here.
Americans are bad with money.
We’re not given much choice.
You simply don’t exist as an American without a car and a phone and internet and an address with your name on it. Anything below that is considered fringe, poverty or societal reject. Good luck getting a job without a smartphone and your own car, don’t expect public transportation to be of any help, it doesn’t generally exist outside the larger cities and what there is of it, often sucks and takes hours out of your day. Our “public” internet is mostly coffee shops who make you buy something to sit there using their slow-ass wifi. If you fall on hard times, you have to apply for aid, which comes with stacks of provisions, like having an address and a phone, and this kind of aid is only available temporarily and if you accidentally make too much money they will cut you off.
If you’re savvy you can learn to use things like libraries and carpools and food banks and other resources for the needy. But it’s really, really hard to get out of poverty once you fall down. Most institutions and companies that provide services of any kind charge you more and more the less money you have. You need to have over a certain amount in your bank or you pay fees. You need to pay your bills on time or they charge you twice as much, you need to keep a credit history maintained even if you’re broke, because most employers include credit checks in their hiring process.
Most of the “middle class” you see here are suburban families working multiple jobs 6 days a week or more and are on average hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in debt. Two people working often requires two cars, now your monthly transportation costs outpace your living expenses. Have kids or want to have kids? Good fucking luck figuring out childcare or daycare and paying for that too, not counting the vast sums of money the delivery and hospital stay alone cost, even if you have insurance. It’s okay, smartphones and tablets will raise your kids. Keep the machine moving.
Country is car centric. You can not live here without a car. It’s next to impossible. Especially for the handicapped. They can’t get anywhere easily without personal transportation. We suck at mass transit.
Americans are also bad with money.
Not all of us. I’m sitting on 60k+ in my checking. Plus I paid off every debt I had but my school loans. Those will never be paid off ahead of time. Fuck the GOP for not helping students. But hopefully I have 20% set aside for a home in the next year or two.
Womp womp
You can do school loans if you start paying bigger. Not sure what your debt is or how large your financial cushion needs to be, but if extra cash is sitting in checking not earning interest, its loosing value while your student loan interest keeps ticking up.
For me after setting aside money for savings, I kept what I needed + plus a small amount for whatever and the rest got dumped into loans, had that shit payed off in a few years. Think my total interest payed was around 3k, I know some people basically end up doubling their debt over the 10 years with some crazy interest rates. (Went to state school, so loans were about 50k for everything, I know some private schools are triple that)
(Also open a saving account or something, your checking account shouldn’t have access to all your funds in the event of debit card theft, especially if you use that online)
Lol I would like to offer you a loan.
Yes, as with most large groups presented as an object or subject there’s usually an implied “most”.
And if your handicap is the vision test you’re just stuck
As a European it seems wild to me that my peers would pay a loan for a car. But they do. That’s crazy…
“American” here. We are obsessed with financing depreciable assets.
We are also obsessed with appearances and status.
I’m sure you can see from this thread some of us cannot comprehend driving a $5000 car. They will whine and come up with tons of excuses for why that just cannot happen.
Reliability is a problem when car trouble can mean losing your job. $5000 doesn’t buy that much car anymore
I cannot comprehend owning a $5000 car.
That’s insane that some people have up to 5k to spend.
We don’t - hence the loan
I bought my 2008 Toyota Sienna for $4500. I talked him down from $4900.
It had:
I bought that van because 1) it was a really good price, 2) engine and transmission are in really good shape, 3) rust-free, and 4) I knew what most of its issues were before I bought it and was able to fix it all in my garage.
Also, I have 5 kids, so the minivan was a necessity. $5000 is the bare minimum for a family car these days.