cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/22332949
JD Vance said that ‘American power comes with certain strings attached’
Not too long ago, this would be a career-ending display of corruption.
Yup.
In case anyone hasn’t noticed, the goalposts for norms have significantly shifted in the last decade. This is historically how it always begins.
Buckle up. Protect yourself.
Yes, and if called out, they say it happens for freedom of speech, which is absurd given that the richest man on earth provides the infrastructure and has a large presence on the platform himself.
Yes, and if called out, they say it happens for freedom of speech, which is absurd given that the richest man on earth provides the infrastructure, (soon) influences the legislative rules and has a large presence on the platform himself.
Holding Western stability hostage in the name of the oligarchs, good job voting everyone…
No no no, you see, we showed the democrats by not showing up to vote! /s
uuugh… I made myself sick quoting those jackass fucktards. (I did vote, and screamed until I was blue in the face to get people to vote. About every year.)
The sad part is that that also describes what the Democrats did to get us into this mess.
stfu, leftist extremists had one fucking chance to stop this from happening but they got fucking greedy.
now we all have to pat the price.
You have data to back that up I assume?
Biden had polling in his hands that said Trump would get 400 electoral votes against him on the day he decided to run for a second term. Then he held on just long enough to make certain we would have no primary and be stuck with a candidate who couldn’t shake the stink of his presidency.
Harris lost the popular vote by over 4-million votes. There aren’t that many “leftist extremists” in the whole damn country, and only a small subset of those wouldn’t have voted for Harris.
The vast bulk of those who stayed home were left leaning apolitical normies. Most of the country fits in that group.
A candidate who couldn’t make it to the first primary in her last campaign for this position too! I felt what I could only describe as “meta-unease” about her.
If I felt so unmotivated, how uninspired was everyone else?
Also I think the racial rhetoric from the Dems is turning some Black voters off.
Harris lost the popular vote by over 4-million votes. There aren’t that many “leftist extremists” in the whole damn country, and only a small subset of those wouldn’t have voted for Harris.
You have data to back that up I assume?
Literally did the thing you criticized them for.
Best I could do without a definition for the stupid use of “leftist extremists” with no definition. My point is, there is zero evidence to blame this election on leftists of any stripe.
But if it’s not the leftists fault…
You are delusional
Dunno if it was enough to change the results, but I agree 100%. As a progressive myself: fuck these people.
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childish understanding of geopoltics again
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They can’t even wait two fucking months before saying explicitly fascist shit like this.
So many people are in for a rude awakening, including many people on the left who have no concept of what is coming. This is what happens when you don’t teach history, I guess.
Yup.
Everyone, left and right, are about to go through something very unpleasant together.
I never did have any hope for those on the right, but I hope those on the left that helped make this happen become fully aware of their mistake.
This is why billionaires shouldn’t exist.
The other thing I need to mention is that is that Elon Musk is far from the only billionaire with a massively disproportionate influence on elections and society. Or even the biggest. He is just the biggest attention whore of them all.
I imagine him and other billionaires in a group chat with him word vomiting every time he has an idea of how to further fuck the USA.
It’d be messed up for the government to do this even if he wasn’t a billionaire though. End corporations in bed with government.
Democracy voted for this, apparently
France’s military industry is having wet dreams thinking about it.
If the US pulls out of NATO France becomes the biggest arms exporter of NATO and I would expect other countries will become less enthusiastic at the idea of buying US weapons systems.
Doesnt Germany also produce a whole lot while their own army is rotting away?
Here is the share of global arms export per country.
Germany, Italy and the UK are also big exporters but still behind France.
Im actually surprised that FR is so much higher. Really unexpected.
It’s not that surprising once you know that their goal is to be completely independent for their US for their military equipment.
It includes the nuclear bomb, missiles, fighter jet, aircraft carrier, submarines, even space capabilities (even if this last part has been lacking a bit lately).
They don’t have the US military budget but they want the same level of technology without any ties to the US.
It means that they are exporting a lot to compensate for the high investments they are pouring into military technology.
Germany sells to KSA and the likes, now a lot is going to ukraine.
Their own equipment is unmaintained pile of trash due to US having 40k troops deployed there. Although maybe that is finally changing.
Hope everyone is ready for this to be at least the next 4 years of our lives.
I say at least because these losers ran on fundamentally changing how our government works. In 4 years they may be able to create a scenario in which it’s literally impossible for them to lose an election. Not to mention the effect this will have on global politics.
We let the Stupids have total control of our federal government. Suffering will become the norm. And if you think we’re suffering now? Well, might be time to pick up a history book.
But hey Gaza, imright, oh wait.
Can’t wait to see what these fuckheads have in store for America, and the rest of the world. Plus, Canada is getting it’s own version of Trump next year, so that’s incredible too.
What wonderful times we live in.
So… extortion then?
Yes, that’s the word.
Europe is about to experience what africa and south america have been experiencing for decades.
Buckle up.
The difference is that Europe should be more capable of resisting America. We’ll see if that actually happens but given how things have gone before when the EU went after American companies I don’t think they’ll budge easily.
Not when combined with “completely unrelated” tarrifs and psyops from china and russia.
10 years until europe falls.
Not being able to access American sites will allow local competitors to appear. Back in 2005-2010, before Facebook, there were many local social platforms and forums. For example, these are all from Romania.
He’s just being honest about US foreign policy for the last 80 years.
Not even in office yet, and already making threats.
I’d like to see Europe tell Vance to fuck off. I suspect that if Europe gives in now, the Trump administration will make this same threat every time Europe does something he doesn’t like.
Trump will be an unreliable NATO ally anyway, so it isn’t much of a risk on Europe’s part.
Don’t negotiate with terrorists
And this was from September so not even elected yet.
Tbh it kinda sounds like they just want to leave NATO regardless.
I get the same feeling, too. They’re just looking for an excuse to ditch Europe - perhaps as a sacrifice to Putin.
Ofc they won’t SAY that - they’ll talk about “what a fantastic savings it will be, to not spend that money”, and probably they’ll work up gently to the point of sending US citizens to become meat shields like the North Koreans and so many others lately. But at each stage, it will always be what “we” wanted to do - it’s “our” idea to do it, I tell you!?
I wouldn’t be surprised if he pulls the US out of NATO and the UN, since he hates both organizations.
I’d be amazed if he does any of it tbh. Last time he just spent most of it playing golf, and sticking his goofy-ass signature on anything they stick in front of him.
The last thing they want to do is actually deal with the boogeyman issues. If they did that they’ll have nothing to campaign on next time.
Most of this will be spent lining their own pockets.
This is such an optimistic take. I am very concerned they will spend the next 4 years making sure whatever election we have next is more similar to a Russian “election”.
Why wouldn’t they try? They’ve done everything they could so far and face no repercussions, why not go ahead and try to be king? A few people will fret and tut-tut but if nobody is going to do anything it doesn’t amount to much.
Well, Trump specifically may not try because the risk/reward isn’t really good for him.
As it stands, he gets to declare an unambiguous “victory” where he won at life. He got to be president with ultimately a clean sweep of the swing states and the popular vote and served as many terms as he is allowed to serve. Thanks to the rules, he doesn’t need to compete again, and he can stop even pretending to work after 4 years.
Meanwhile, a push to establish him as “dictator for life” might at best buy him another few years in office before his health will fail. Such an effort comes with high risk, of him going down in history as more of a “bad man”, of personal risk for being targeted by violence.
Now JD Vance might be game to make a go of it, he’s got decades left in the tank. Of course broadly speaking there’s a balance of power, with those currently in power relatively comfortable knowing that the vote serves as a nice way to get pushed out of office before people get pissed enough to put you in real physical danger. Plenty of opportunities to be self-serving with a pretty safe retirement should things start going awry. Fanaticism can drive people to go further, but I would like to think a pragmatic person with a sense of self-interest can see the value in a peaceful voting out versus having those same millions of people losing their political voice.
This shit is so naive.
The fact that he’ll spend all his time playing golf or whatever will leave ample room for all his appointees to actually govern. It’s not Trump we should be worried about.
This is so naive. They literally told us exactly what they will do, and it literally has “2025” in the title. We need to listen to them when they tell us what they are going to do.
If I recall correctly countries can’t withdrawl from the UN without their approval
Problem is though that the un-united dystopia of america could cause issues in the UN
Didn’t congress make it practically impossible to pull out of nato now?
Republicans will control Congress. I’m sure they’ll be fine rolling anything back.
Do you not understand what the word “dictator” means? He told us what he’s going to be. Congress is irrelevant, and if it continues to exist, it will be to rubber stamp, at best.
The US pulling out of the UN would allow them to pass all sorts of cool stuff, like recognizing and admitting Palestine and calling for a ceasefire, recognizing the universal rights of children, and condemning the far-right, all of which the US used its veto power to stop against overwhelming support on the other side.
It’s going to be a hell of a long 4 years, for America and the rest of the world. Damn.
They should do this with Sanctions.
EU countries could start by carryng their weight in NATO.
Ukraine war exposed EU as incoherent imbeciles unable to maintain a proper security posture, esp Germany and their Nazis nepo baby regime… Straight 🤡
Vance behavior is out of line but you need to check that bravado that is not support by anything.
Pay for your own defense and help Ukraine properly… This is your fucking war that was caused by German being a Putin’s bitch. Industrial economy relying on a geopolitical adversery for energy while 40k American protect it from Russia for free. Classic parasite behavior.
Mutti merkal so good 🤡
The EU has by now significantly outpaid the US, and out-supported the US in Ukraine. However, for historical reasons, it lacks certain items which Ukrainians badly need (tactical ballistic missiles and anti-missile defense, to bring good examples).
On the matter of aircraft, I should especially emphasize that EU countries have given fighter aircraft, but the US has not. The US is currently attempting to get through the bureaucracy of approving a Swedish AWACS aircraft (with some US components) going to Ukraine.
Educate thyself here, military people use this resource and approve of it:
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I know people in ukraine. They call it north korea.
Russian bootlicker spotted…
Oh dear, spilled koolaid all down your straight jacket
You offended a bunch of Germans here. Don’t forget the Americans are sitting in Germany mostly to bomb Syrian kids though, they’re not defending Europe from anything.
You offended a bunch of Germans here.
Maybe they will get in their dense authority bootlicking brains that their political leadership has fumble Germany’s geo politcal posture for benefit of oligarch’s who seed wealth came largely from slave labour during the third reich.
These oligarchs sold German geopoltics our for cheap Russian gas, they obstruct proper policy vis-a-vis Russia because they want a “rapprochement” jfc…
Nahh… instead they get butthurt… me country good 🤡
Pathetic.
In US at least critically thinking people US ourselves for what we are… A global empire with all the bullshit that it entails. Having to dance around German’s sensibilities online…
Get a fucking clue…
This guy is the future vice president. Fuck you people of America.
More than likely future president. Trump served his purpose in getting his cult to take over America. He’ll probably step down to play golf and have sex with minors.
It’ll be the 25th amendment.
The fun part will be watching Trump and his maga cult fight it, cope with it, and eventually come to terms they have been grifted.
This is why people say Americans are morons, because they elect shitheads like this.
How fascist of him
The government using it’s power in the service of corporations
These autocrats have always wanted to drop NATO.
Let’s not pretend like X is their reason. Supporting autocracy is their reason, and now they’re trying to come up with excuses to get the public onboard.
Yes, but they need to repay the rat elon for all his support during the campaign. This might even be true
These autocrats have always wanted to drop NATO.
NATO is a terrorist organization led by USA. If any USA rulers want to disband it would be only to com up with a bigger and more evil organization.
So, NATO had a problematic operation, trying to establish (and coordinate the establishment of) guerilla stay-behind troops to use in the event of Soviet takeover - and the operation went especially problematic in Italy during the Years of Lead, where some of those guys associated with right-wing terrorists. The year was 1969 or so.
Basing on this, how do I conclude anything about the NATO of today?
Disclaimer: I was asked to hold an anti NATO speech during a protest event during a NATO summit. Being a moderately honest anarchist, I held a speech denouncing the practises seen in Afghanistan (the year was 2012), but emphasized that collective self defense is a valuable thing to have (a common attitude here in Eastern Europe), and added that if the alliance would bother doing what it says on the sticker, I would support it.
NATO is an alliance of various countries. Some of them aren’t nice or democratic (classic example: Turkey). Mixed bag, and constantly changing. Membership in NATO is not a letter of indulgence for a member state to do anything - allies are obliged to help only if someone attacks a member state. If a NATO member attacks someone else, allies can ignore the affair or even oppose the member (example: Turkey recently bombed Kurdish troops in Syria so sloppily that threatened US troops shot down a Turkish drone).
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“According to several Western European researchers, the operation involved the use of assassination, psychological warfare, and false flag operations to delegitimize left-wing parties in Western European countries, and even went so far as to support anti-communist militias and right-wing terrorism as they tortured communists and assassinated them, such as Eduardo Mondlane in 1969”
Based on this conclude what you want about the NATO of today.
Based on this, I conclude: the NATO of today is a mostly defensive alliance with some taints in its history.
It is currently very busy doing a real job - opposing a conquering dictator named Vladimir Putin.
I wish it luck, as long as it sticks to its declared purpose. If it oversteps, I will revise my opinion.
taints in its history
Ooh, let’s play “find the dark history”! What better way to distract from today’s issues and avoid talking about solutions for tomorrow’s problem!
This is me agreeing with you, to be clear. The description “taints in its history” is so ubiquitous as to be useless. Yes, acknowledging the errors of the past is important to learn from them and improve, but the focus needs to be on that learning and improving.
The NATO has potential to be a force of security. In a modern world, conflict between peers is more destructive than ever and the returns on aggressive action are more strongly affected by the strength of the defense, such a union of forces can discourage attack by making it too unprofitable.
Of course, that requires the union to actually stand united and the potential aggressor to be reasonable and motivated by the state’s prosperity. Neither of those seem entirely guaranteed right now…
Your opinions are certainly grounded in reality at least. It’s refreshing to read something sensible for a change.
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said a guy living under nato umbrella 🤡
How is that coffee in your posh good? living large?
It is currently very busy doing a real job
Yes i’m sure they are doing a very busy job like they were in their tainted history (false flag operations to delegitimize left-wing parties in Western European countries)
If it oversteps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Response
“Several of the operations were along the coast in the borders between sea and land, and together with roads and populated areas. Surveillance, patrols, road control posts, vehicle inspection, control of air space, minesweeping, evacuation of civilians, and riot control were important part of the exercise.”
If you are sure about something, then bring evidence of considerable off-label activities.
In response to your response about “Nordic Response”:
Surveillance, patrols, road control posts, vehicle inspection, control of air space, minesweeping, evacuation of civilians, and riot control were important part of the exercise.”
Those are realistic military duties in war time. Every military practises them. Where do you find a fault?
An example from real life: the Ukrainian military has checkpoints on roads near the frontline. Moving with a vehicle, you’d expect to show papers, say a few words and maybe even show transported goods. The purpose? Finding reconnaisance / sabotage groups, which every competent enemy is expected to send. If an opponent doesn’t send recon or saboteurs, they are fools. If a military doesn’t learn how to deter those, they’re fools.
How does one learn? After dry reading in a classroom: one holds an excercise. There’s a home team and an opposing team. The home team checks, the opposing team infiltrates. Both teams report what they achieved, results get compared. If the blue team found the “saboteurs”, good. If the red team “blew up” all bridges and pipelines in the area, people think hard about what they did wrong. If they don’t practise, they don’t get to think hard.
Those are realistic military duties in war time. Every military practises them. Where do you find a fault?
Where do i find a fault in conducting vehicle inspections and riot control at peace time, from an organization with a shady past involving false flag operations, psychological warfare and assassinations aimed at delegitimize left-wing parties.
Dunno buddy let me keep thinking
An example from real life: the Ukrainian military has checkpoints on roads near the frontline. Moving with a vehicle, you’d expect to show papers, say a few words and maybe even show transported goods. The purpose? Finding reconnaisance / sabotage groups, which every competent enemy is expected to send. If an opponent doesn’t send recon or saboteurs, they are fools. If a military doesn’t learn how to deter those, they’re fools.
The ukrainian military also have checkpoints in the west border to make sure any male between 18 and 60 doesn’t leave the country so that they can be forced into war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilization_in_Ukraine
How does one learn? After dry reading in a classroom: one holds an excercise. There’s a home team and an opposing team. The home team checks, the opposing team infiltrates. Both teams report what they achieved, results get compared. If the blue team found the “saboteurs”, good. If the red team “blew up” all bridges and pipelines in the area, people think hard about what they did wrong. If they don’t practise, they don’t get to think hard.
To me this sound like military rhetoric coming from a military man. You self defined yourself as being a moderately honest anarchist, i suggest you to keep doing your anarchist readings and re-read the works of Emma Goldman and Errico Malatesta.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-preparedness-the-road-to-universal-slaughter
As if the US and a whole lot other countries are not doing Psy-Ops and other behind the scenes actions. pulling strings on the world stage.
Yeah dude! Tell them! Also tell them what was the normal operations at the time! And what are Russia and China doing today!!!
You wanting the same thing JD Vance wants should trigger a warning in your brain before you say anything else.
I said that NATO is a terrorist organization not that i want something
I like how you say this and your instance is “sh. It just works”
what about it?
As a European, i say, “Please go ahead.” While I like the idea of Nato, I want my politicians to be forced to take action in creating an eu Military and not rely on Nato for defence.
Also out of curiosity, will you guys be deporting immigrants like Elon Musk? Who invalidated their visa.
Something tells me he’s not going anywhere.
We laugh at this, but I suspect someone on trumps team has seen this and thought " OMG it’s so easy!"
Well of course, we know that reading comprehension isnt strong in the MAGAhole sphere.
Y use word. Picture eazy, make sence.
Can Canada apply to join Europe?
I think we have one free chair left after UK, so…
Pretty please svp
imagine if trump seized everything he can from him and deported him for being immigrant
Trump and Vance hold no actual power. Musk is now the shadow president of the USA.
I wish this were true… You should probably read some history about fascism/totalitarianism. Musk, and his corporations, are just another arm of the authoritarian government, to be used on the whim of our singular leader. Usually to mete out vengeance for perceived slights, and occasionally reward a crony for their loyalty (until they’re no longer needed, of course).
This is how all corporations function under this system, otherwise they are eliminated.
Welcome back to the political spoils system.
Old article, btw. This is from Sept 2024. I get that’s what he promised, and while I think he’s a complete asshat, let’s not discount that he and Trump said and will say anything to appear smart, capable, and as if they have a plan.
Time will tell if this actually comes to pass, but I’m not actually going to hold my breath for this one.
Good note, I didn’t notice that in the original post. I edited the title
And then you get idiots that will tell someone that is not American : “uh why do you care so much about our election, it’s not your country”
Well yes your (vice) president is starting to extort the rest of the world before even starting his mandate…
Also, we draw lines on maps and build borders but the environment doesnt care where pollution & emissions originate, everything spreads everywhere in the end.
An NATO without the US would be better for the whole world although I know that it’s not Vance intention
Very much this.
Just look at the TPP. The US tried to write the rules and the rest of the partners said, “No.” The US said, “Screw you guys, we’re going home!” and stormed off in a snit assuming the deal would fall apart without them but it didn’t and it ended up being better without the US imperialist bullshit. Then, US farmers realized that they were getting fucked because the US wasn’t part of the deal ([1], [2], [3]) and the US came back demanding to be let in and the US imperialist bullshit restored to the agreement. Once again the partnerd said, “No”.
Let’s let the US leave whatever they want to leave, renegotiate everything without them, then only let them return under the new terms. The world will be a much better place in the end.
EDIT: Trump ordered the US to withdraw from the TPP because the partners wouldn’t be bullied into accepting one-sided andi-competitive, anti-consumer protections for US industry and a dispute resolution process that favoured the US but that the US would ignore when it lost.
This is the absolute weirdest thing about Trump’s governance to me: how sometimes he ends up doing good things for terrible reasons, like when the US redeployed from Syria.
And there are countries littered with US air bases. Like the one only a few miles from here that regularly houses bombers.
