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Critically thinking now, how strong is the evidence here?
Those are two real medical diagnoses - Swyer syndrome or XY gonadal dysgenesis for XY women (occurs in about 1:100000 women) and de la Chapelle syndrome or XX male syndrome for XX men (occurs in about 1:20000 to 1:30000 men)
Here is a NORD report on Swyer syndrome, as well as the original article on de la Chapelle syndrome: 1.https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/ 2.https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1762158/
A person’s biological sex usually refers to their status as female or male depending on their chromosomes, reproductive organs, and other characteristics. Chromosomes are tightly packed DNA, or molecules that contain the genetic instructions for the development and functioning of all living things. Humans typically have forty-six chromosomes. Two of those are sex chromosomes that contain instructions for the development and functioning of characteristics related to biological sex, such as reproductive organs. There are two kinds of human sex chromosomes, X and Y. Individuals identified as males tend to have one X and one Y chromosome, while those identified as females tend to have two X chromosomes. However, other people are born with other chromosome combinations, such as XXY, that lead them to develop a mix of characteristics. People who fit that description are often referred to as intersex, a category for people whose bodies do not conform with stereotypical expectations of males or females at birth.
Taken from here
Evidence seems pretty strong to me.
Yeah, and those are malformations and genetical defects that come with a lot of problems.
I don’t know why people glorify them… Also, there is absolutely no way that a man born with XY magically will change it in their lifetime as the posts sugests.
This article seems to disagree. But I don’t know much on the subject so I might be misunderstanding.
Also, no matter what the correct answer is, pretending the answer is binary is definitely wrong. Since it’s obviously a lot more complicated.
People who see gender as a F or M binary in 2025 are willingly ignorant to the bone.
“It’s basic biology” mfs when advanced biology
it is basic biology, ie biology simplified to teach a kid in middle school. the thing is sciences don’t stop at middle school level. a lot of university education is about clarifying that things you learned before were simplified to the point that they’re practically useless if not outright wrong.
Light travels in straight lines, next year its a wave and then its particles. What you said isso true about uni rethreading.
To be fair light does travel in straight lines (more or less… ignoring that nothing travels in any set or even single path something something veritasium video), its not lights fault if a straight line in physical reality doesn’t always happen to match up with the geometry we invented.
See I didnt go that far, mindboggling
I agree with Dr. Jey McCreight on the science.
But for determining truth, both sides are wrong here.
Dunning-Kruger is bad, but so is credentialism and appeal to authority.
Many people with PhD’s have had Dunning-Kruger. Someone else mentioned Ben Carson being great at neurosurgery, but not politics.
A PhD doesn’t make you infallible.
I am saying this as someone who is taking graduate-level courses and will be pursuing my PhD. When I’m correct, it’s not because my future PhD causes reality to magically conform to my opinions - it’s because I rigorously looked at the evidence, logic, and formed my own conclusion that better aligns with reality.
If one hasn’t fallen victim to Dunning-Kruger, then they have not advanced their knowledge in any meaningful capacity.
You can even be incorrect on a subject you have expertise in.
that’s why we have peer reviews for new findings by experts.
Exactly, imagine if we threw away the entire peer review process and made it about, “Well I have a PhD! Checkmate.”
We’d descend into a dark age for science.
Experts often disagree.
If it were that easy, everything would be solved. We wouldn’t need so much research or so many universities.
The phrase is funny but you wouldn’t catch me dead wearing a logical fallacy
Can I interest you in a logical phallus?
Wouldn’t that be a logic probe?
…and all in between, hormonal and/or physically. “Only two genders” is false
To be fair, a Person with a PhD still can have Dunning-Kruger on other subjects.
Ben Carson is a great Neurosurgeon, but dumbass on politics.
Neil deGrasse Tyson and literally anything other than astrophysics
And sometimes also astrophysics
They can also on their subject.
Yeah, both sides are wrong here.
Dunning-Kruger is bad, but so is credentialism and appeal to authority.
I guees it needs (relevant) inserted?
One time a woman told me that my lack of a second X Chromosome meant I would “always be a man”
So I gaslit her into thinking her husband had klinefelters.
I hate how Republicans think transphobia is science
That’s gloriously devious
I hope this criticism is valid :
https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2023/05/09/debunking_the_dunning-kruger_effect_898340.html#!
and
https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2023/05/09/debunking_the_dunning-kruger_effect_898340.html#!
…
There is a “people think they are better than average” rule, rather than whatever Dunning-Kreuger suggested.Error: url1 and url2 are the sameI think it’s sus that a Math Lecturer decides to post an article about philosophy and then doesn’t describe any of the steps he took. The article basically just says i did a thing, but doesnt explain what he did/how to reproduce the result… On the other hand, philosophy is a field with many wrong conclusions and the like, so it is believable. But again in my eyes it’s not proven, since it’s just ‘one guy’ saying something and not replicated nor reproduced.
I think a lot of these XX XY “only two genders” people aren’t just dunning Kruger, they’re transphobic idiots with an agenda. So even if they had the science and knowledge it wouldn’t matter because they’re pushing their hateful stupid agenda, facts and logic be damned. They don’t care, they just want to rationalize hating us trans people because we make them uncomfy.
I would honestly be very surprised if any Republican politicians actually care about sex or gender. I think they’re just evil and those are convenient issues to divide the working class. When you don’t have popular policy in real issues, you need to make up some fake ones to get people to still support you.
The current moral panic about queer people is definitely manufactured, but the hatred that it’s stirred up is still real. All the religious psychos in power (including Speaker of the House Mike Johnson) really believe that stuff and want to enforce their hierarchy.
What really bothers me is that they seem to be winning on the “Trans Sports” issues which sucks, it’s such a blatant distraction that I’d let them just “have that”, but… you know damn well that’s the floor and not the ceiling, and even then their wins are based on lies.
There are less trans athletes in the world then there are kids with measles in Texas, but the Right would have you believe ever Macho Man Randy Savage type is getting into sports and just blowing records clean away. Hence the push to “Ban transwomen and revoke their records”
What records? Even Lia Thomas, the closest they’ve gotten to finding an “Evil Cheating Trans!!1111” only came in 4th place…
Is there some third gender that trans people can transition to that I’m unaware of? I’m afraid I don’t follow the whole situation all too well sorry. My partner has some transgender family members, but i’ve never i’ve seen anyone that isn’t male to female or female to male. I guess non binary exists, but doesn’t that mean no gender or both?
I’m afraid I don’t know much on the subject It’s unfortunate.
Fear not I, a still rather confused individual, but with slightly more knowledge on the topic shall answer thy call (I seem to suffer from the curse referred to as “being genderfluid” by the scholars of that gender stuff)!
Somebody who is non-binary is just someone who does not feel like they are entirely male or female. This can mean that they are both, neither or a different gender not connected to either but also not entirely absent or of course any combination of the previous examples.
In my case (genderfluid) I just flop around on the gender spectrum, mostly not having a gender or feeling a bit feminine but sometimes I do feel male or like some other gender. Though genderfluid just means that the persons gender changes over time, it doesn’t have to be the same genders that I experience.
Hope this helps :)
You’re confusing sex with gender. Both are a spectrum but sex is a biological spectrum of sexual organs in a living creature and gender is a quality, projection and performance of a person that also lands on a spectrum.
The confusion is because they both use male and female but sex and gender are different things. Gender can change throughout a person’s life. A person’s sex is consistent throughout life and can’t be changed. A person’s gender can’t change their sex. Sex also isn’t as simple as xx is female and xy is male, there’s a whole bunch of things that can’t put a person in one, both, or none of those categories. Gender is even more complicated.
The current doctrine is that there are unlimited genders, if you can think of one you can call yourself that, they call them “neopronouns” and aren’t simply relegated to xe/xer but include things like wolfkin and dragonfucker. There’s also plurals which to the best of my understanding feel like there’s multiple people usually with multiple neopronouns inside their head simultaneously.
I’m not either of these so maybe someone who is can elaborate better, but that’s what I’ve been told and I hope it helps.
Exactly. They just don’t care. They’re not necessarily ignorant and participating in good faith.
They’re guaranteed to not be participating in good faith if they’re angrily debating sex and gender like that.
Note how they always enshrine gender in biology, but then make all kinds of non-biological statements about what gender is.
“XX is woman”/“Large gametes is woman”/“can conceive is woman”
And then they’ll say
“Women aren’t as aggressive”, “women are more emotional”, “women like being in the home more”, “those are women’s clothes”, etc.
The only reason it’s so important for it to be biological is because of how it punishes gender non-conformity and makes the lives of trans people hell. Like it isn’t ideologically consistent and they know that. They just don’t care. If it was just about genitals or chromosomes, then why is it that gender dictates all these social things about us? The only reason to root gender in how you were born is to ensure gender roles are as rigid and immutable as possible.
how it punishes
gendernon-conformityFit the mold or die. Always the same.
Without a purity test how can I tell which members of the tribe are loyal and which might betray me?
Does it float?
The only reason to root gender in how you were born is to ensure gender roles are as rigid and immutable as possible.
This, this right here, that’s the game, that’s the whole game. They want to punish transness and then start changing what the definition of trans is.
“Your daughter was wearing pants, and said no when my boy asked her out, that’s trans behavior and it’s unAmerican, might have to report you to a correction agency if this shit doesn’t stop.”
Aren’t there more than two sexes in biology?
Yes, there are many species that have more than 2 sexes. Those are decided by scientific consensus.
But sex is ultimately a category to describe the process of reproduction. By definition, this is exclusionary. It’s why conservatives fumble so much when trying to describe sex in terms of actual definitions. Inherently, it is not possible to fit every person into a table of 2 columns in that way. Sex is not a binary because human beings are not binary. There is an incredible amount of variation in our bodies.
Relating to humans?
Yes but they are mutations (e. g. XXY, XXX, etc.) that often give rise to numerous biological problems or death.I don’t know if there are species that require more than two sexes to propagate. I never head of them.
You are vastly underestimating the prevalence of chromosomal variations. They are common, especially among cis women.
I like the way you phrased that at the end. Sexes are categories that relate exclusively to the concept of progeny. If you’re not able to reproduce, you’re already kind of excluded from the sex binary. If we break the human concept of sex down to its constituent parts, it is just “can procreate”. The categories are useful in some contexts, but to state them as universal or to try and extrapolate them so widely is significantly disruptive and unhelpful. Humans are and always have been more than our reproductive anatomy. Your doctor and anyone you want to reproduce with are really the only people who need to know whether you fit into either category.
XY is a mutation, genius
Im thinking creatures that propagate via asexual reproduction might not fit the male/female sex binary and intersex might not as well?
Correct on both counts. To make it even better, there exist some creatures that primarily mate and reproduce sexually, but can also reproduce asexually if the situation requires it - I think ants, and some reptiles, if I remember right.
But that’s not more that two sexes. It’s the same number or less. A hermaphrodite isn’t a third sex, it’s two sexes side by side and a sexless cellular organism has exactly one sex.
The distinction male/female is usually determined by measuring the size of the gametes. Female gametes are the bigger ones (e. g. ovum) and male gametes are the smaller ones (e. g. spermatozoon). There are organisms where the gametes of both sexes have the same size. So technically they have two sexes but don’t fit the categories male and female.
But wouldn’t the asexual reproducing animal that is one sex be neither male or female and thus is a third?
Sex in the sense that we have been talking about it here is in reference to mammals. The moment you wander outside of the mammalian class of vertebrates these concepts of sex start to become far less applicable.
There are many birds that have more than 2 sexes. Reptiles and invertebrates as well. Asexual reproduction would be classed as it’s own sex apart from any male/female system.
you’re a mammal though right
Depends on how you’re counting.
“Yeah but science can be proven wrong an change over time, while my beliefs and biases are forever!”
Bayesian updating converges, surprisingly, to that idiot’s belief system.
Confidently incorrect is the default with these people. I spend most of my time with family aggressively correcting misinformation about my field and related ones. They will die earlier thinking they know more because of Youtube. Getting them to stop taking bad health advice and mystery joint injections from a fucking chiropractor is the latest battle.
The impression of legitimacy enjoyed by chiropractic is too damn high. I was well into my 20s before I ever heard a single word about it being pseudoscience. Walking around (usually on people’s fucking spines) calling themselves doctors, I absolutely believed it was just some sub-variety of physiotherapy, which I guess is the point. In the whole universe of alternative medicine, I think that has to be the practice which has most effectively disguised itself as conventional medicine. It’s gross.
I walked in to a chiropractors’ office once to try and see if they’d take me for an appointment, found a brochure proudly proclaiming that chiropractic treatments can help cure autism and cancer, and turned right the fuck around and walked back out.
If you think you need a chiropractor you actually need a physical therapist and anyone trying to tell you otherwise is lying to you.
One of my mates goes to a chiro. The rest of us detail for him how our problems were helped by physios and they were fixed, and stayed fixed, while he needs to see a chiro every 3 months for just exactly the same problems
He describes himself as an idiot, and I believe him. He still goes to a chiro.
Australia has high respect for chiropractic because the King likes them, and when he was a prince he was pretty influential too. No idea why it would be popular outside the Commonwealth
I was well into my 20s before I ever heard a single word about it being pseudoscience.
every fucking tv show and film referring to them as some sort of curer of back issues probably doesn’t help
And the regs are really bad in the country making all that TV.
I guess I should count myself lucky for where I grew up: there’s a big/famous chiropractic school in this city, so this creepy motherfucker was on TV commercials all the time:
Never mind quackery; I thought it was legitimately some sort of cult!
Oh you grew up near Atlanta. I, too, am a Sid Williams commercial survivor.
I just don’t get how people don’t have the sense to run from someone who looks like that.
In Australia they are able to request some x-rays. As in the entire spine, which ends up irradiating radio-sensitive organs like the thyroid and ovaries, often in young people. As a radiographer this shit drives me up the fucking wall, especially given the already frustrating battles over inappropriate imaging requests from real, actual doctors. Want to know a contributing factor to the increase in cancers? The absolutely absurd radiation doses people are sucking up over years of over-imaging.
The way chiropractic plays itself as the cure all for any ailment with regular “adjustments” is the real bullshit, it’s straight up a sales pitch to get people in a recurring schedule for that sweet appointment revenue. Don’t get me wrong, when I’ve thrown my back out the best and most immediate relief I’ve found is to have the guy super twist and crack my back loose just so I can get some mobility to stretch and walk. But the way they sell it as you need several appointments a week to stay “regular” is a crock of shit.
The quackness of chiropractors depends on where you are, in many places it’s indeed just a type of physiotherapy, or better put you have to be a physio to be a chiropractor. Similarly, in practically all of the world osteopaths are quacks while in the US they’re doing evidence-based medicine with particular philosophical accents.
They provided me valuable placebo (I think). I still have no idea what my issue really was, but at least it’s gone. Never been back to a chiropractor since though.
I find irony that they disregard expert opinions on the things they are experts for (climate scientists for example) but will accept an entire worldview of opinions based on someone being “smart” like the opinion of a software engineer has on philosophy or politics.
Reject the expert on the subject they’re an expert on because that makes them “elite” and they were trained to think that was bad, but accept an unfounded opinion of someone who may be smart in an unrelated field because the opinion is “different” so it must be “smart”
I think this is the trap all self assigned internet intellectuals fall into. They parrot opinions and vibes from echo chambers that discredit real science or real reporting and call it enlightenment. This in itself is stupid, but then even more stupid people are drawn in and suddenly we have a big club of geniuses
Just curious, is this chiro actually injecting something into their joints? Or is it like pretend injections, like with that magic gun thing that makes a click but doesn’t actually do anything?
Can I get a T shirt that says “I have Dunning-Krueger and your Phd looks cute”? I just have a lot of BS to share and I don’t want to be sorry about it.
Dunning-Krueger effect is the delusion that you are smarter than a serial killer who stalks teenagers in their nightmares.
Actually, the science says you will feel regret and will grow to resent that shirt over time. /s
That’s because today’s t-shirts are made of such poor materials.
But the economics says I should print them and make a fortune selling them to idiots. Hmm decisions, decisions.
While this is very funny, and definitely representative of a sort of ignorance/arrogance commonly found in ideologues - I recently learned that most people talking about the effect have, in fact, been Dunning-Krugering themselves.
Insightful video on the topic.
What most people expect the effect to look like:
What the actual results were:
Yeah, it’s really frustrating and quite ironic that pop culture keeps using this obscure scientific reference, that they don’t really understand in its intended context, to describe something that really ought be plainly said: that we all have a tendency to overinflate our competence. if anything Dunning-Krueger showed that only the most seasoned experts judge themselves modestly. (and even then we’d likely only find their modesty in that particular area of expertise). it’s a commentary on all of us!
But no, people name-drop this research just to dunk on people and feel smugly superior. (and I am glad I agree with the politics of the intellectual in the OP, that means it’s okay and I’m a bit more competent too!) ugh. I cringe every time i read someone say Dunning-Krueger.
PS on your first image, whoever failed to put “phd student” at the trough of that curve fucked up
Fig 1 is a modified emotional change curve applied in learning and business settings. The term “Valley of Despair” is used in both concepts, and it’s cool, memorable verbiage, but it shouldn’t imply relation between Dunning-Kreuger and the change curve
Image description: A modified emotional change curve from Evocon with Y-Axis being “attitude during change process” and X-Axis is time. There are 6 emotional phases described on this chart: 1. Neutral attitude, no knowledge; 2. Initial excitement, motivated; 3. Denial, indifferent, passive, apathy; 4. Resistance, frustration, doubt, anxiety (this phase falls below neutral and is described as “The Valley of Despair”); 5. Exploration, energized, small wins, creative; 6. Commitment, enthusiasm, problem solving, focus, team work.
While I know of the proper dunning-kruger effect chart, that still doesn’t help me out of the imposter syndrome valley of despair
